I think (based upon my recollections of quotes of WT literature) that initially WT literature said that organ translates were fine, that later for a short period of time the WT condemned them (and I think they banned them), but that even later once again they did not ban them.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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27
Did the Watchtower Society ban Vaccinations and Organ Transplants?
by Vanderhoven7 inan avid wts supporter writes:.
re: vaccinations: vaccinations have never been banned.
if they were, then no representative of the wts would have been allowed to travel overseas when vaccines were compulsory around 1920 when vaccines was regularly in the news, there was both positive and negative information printed in the golden age (forerunner of the awake) but not from the staff writers, but from out side sources of article by medical doctors at the time and others that responded to those articles.. re: organ transplants: organ transplants were never forbidden by the society.
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Disillusioned JW
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Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....
by BoogerMan in....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.
2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.
in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.
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Disillusioned JW
In considering this topic thread it is important to realize that the NT gospels embellish what Jesus said. They incorporate ideas about Jesus which Jesus did not hold about himself. This is brought out at https://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/did_jesus_think_he_was_god_new_insights_on_jesus_own_self_image/ which is an except from Bart Ehrman's book called How Jesus Became God.
In the except Ehrman says that though the historical Jesus taught about the Son of Man, Jesus did not consider himself the Son of Man, nor did Jesus consider himself God. Ehrman says the message of Jesus was about the coming of the kingdom of God, and that Jesus never publicly (except when he was on trail before Pilate) said he would be the king (though Jesus had privately told his apostles that he would be king). I think that Ehrman is correct about this. [H. G. Wells got some of this right in his book called The Outline Of History, but Wells didn't conclude that Jesus taught an apocalyptic message, and Wells seemed to believe Jesus taught the kingdom would only exist within people and only be manifested by their actions.] As a result, the WT's emphasis on Jehovah God and his kingdom (with the kingdom having an administration on Earth which benefits human subjects) is much closer to what the historical Jesus taught than what virtually all of the Christian religions teach. [However, it is very improper for the governing body of the JW to elevate themselves and the WT organization so very high. They have no scriptural basis for doing it, nor do they have any basis in the teachings of the historical Jesus for doing so.]
The excerpt of Ehramn's book says, in part, the following.
'According to our accounts, the trial of Jesus before Pilate was short and to the point. Pilate asked him whether it was true that he was the king of the Jews. Almost certainly, this was the actual charge leveled against Jesus. It is multiply attested in numerous independent witnesses, both at the trial itself and as the charge written on the placard that hung with him on his cross (e.g., Mark 15:2, 26). Moreover, it is not a charge that Christians would have invented for Jesus—for a possibly unexpected reason. Even though Christians came to understand Jesus to be the messiah, they never ever, from what we can tell, applied to him the title “king of the Jews.” If Christians were to invent a charge to put on Pilate’s lips, it would be, “Are you the messiah?” But that’s not how it works in the Gospels. The charge is specifically that he called himself “king of the Jews.”
Evidence that Jesus really did think that he was the king of the Jews is the very fact that he was killed for it. If Pilate asked him whether he were in fact calling himself this, Jesus could have simply denied it, and indicated that he meant no trouble and that he had no kingly expectations, hopes, or intentions. And that would have been that. The charge was that he was calling himself the king of the Jews, and either he flat-out admitted it or he refused to deny it. Pilate did what governors typically did in such cases. He ordered him executed as a troublemaker and political pretender. Jesus was charged with insurgency, and political insurgents were crucified.
The reason Jesus could not have denied that he called himself the king of the Jews was precisely that he did call himself the king of the Jews. He meant that, of course, in a purely apocalyptic sense: when the kingdom arrived, he would be made the king. But Pilate was not interested in theological niceties. Only the Romans could appoint someone to be king, and anyone else who wanted to be king had to rebel against the state.
... The evidence for Jesus’s claims to be divine comes only from the last of the New Testament Gospels, not from any earlier sources.
Someone may argue that there are other reasons, apart from explicit divine self-claims, to suspect that Jesus saw himself as divine. For example, he does amazing miracles that surely only a divine figure could do; and he forgives people’s sins, which surely is a prerogative of God alone; and he receives worship, as people bow down before him, which surely indicates that he welcomes divine honors.
There are two points to stress about such things. The first is that all of them are compatible with human, not just divine, authority. In the Hebrew Bible the prophets Elijah and Elisha did fantastic miracles—including healing the sick and raising the dead—through the power of God, and in the New Testament so did the Apostles Peter and Paul; but that did not make any of them divine. When Jesus forgives sins, he never says “I forgive you,” as God might say, but “your sins are forgiven,” which means that God has forgiven the sins. This prerogative for pronouncing sins forgiven was otherwise reserved for Jewish priests in honor of sacrifices that worshipers made at the temple. Jesus may be claiming a priestly prerogative, but not a divine one. And kings were worshiped—even in the Bible (Matt. 18:26)—by veneration and obeisance, just as God was. Here, Jesus may be accepting the worship due to him as the future king. None of these things is, in and of itself, a clear indication that Jesus is divine.
But even more important, these activities may not even go back to the historical Jesus. Instead, they may be traditions assigned to Jesus by later storytellers in order to heighten his eminence and significance. Recall one of the main points of this chapter: many traditions in the Gospels do not derive from the life of the historical Jesus but represent embellishments made by storytellers who were trying to convert people by convincing them of Jesus’s superiority and to instruct those who were converted. These traditions of Jesus’s eminence cannot pass the criterion of dissimilarity and are very likely later pious expansions of the stories told about him—told by people who, after his resurrection, did come to understand that he was, in some sense, divine.
What we can know with relative certainty about Jesus is that his public ministry and proclamation were not focused on his divinity; in fact, they were not about his divinity at all. They were about God. And about the kingdom that God was going to bring. And about the Son of Man who was soon to bring judgment upon the earth. When this happened the wicked would be destroyed and the righteous would be brought into the kingdom—a kingdom in which there would be no more pain, misery, or suffering. The twelve disciples of Jesus would be rulers of this future kingdom, and Jesus would rule over them. Jesus did not declare himself to be God. He believed and taught that he was the future king of the coming kingdom of God, the messiah of God yet to be revealed. This was the message he delivered to his disciples, and in the end, it was the message that got him crucified. It was only afterward, once the disciples believed that their crucified master had been raised from the dead, that they began to think that he must, in some sense, be God.'
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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post where I said "... applying the wors of ..." I should have said "... applying the words of ...".
Further information: I notice that the 1885 RV, the 1898 ARV (published by Oxford and by Cambridge), and the 1901 ASV each have the translators' note for Psalms 45:6 of "Or, Thy throne is the throne of God &c."
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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
The Bible in Living English (by Byington; copyright 1972 by the WT) in Hebrews 1:8 says "... God is your throne for ever and ever ..." and at Psalms 45:6 it says "God is your throne forever and evermore ...".
The Bible; A New Translation (by Moffatt; copyright 1935) in Hebrews 1:8 says "... God is thy throne for ever and ever ...". Oddly at Psalms 45:6 it doesn't use the word "God", but uses the phrase "shall stand" instead.. In that verse it says "Your throne shall stand for ever more ..." The reason for such could be the scholarly conjecture (#3) mentioned in the translators' note to Hebrews 1:8 in the Fifth Edition of the The New Testament In Modern Speech (by Weymouth and "Newly Revised By James Alexander Robertson") in reference to Psalms 45:6. That NT by Weymouth says the conjecture says the following.
"(3) A corrupt Hebrew text, ' Yahweh ' (God), being a mistake for the almost identical Hebrew word meaning ' shall be '--' Thy throne shall be for ever and ever.' This conjecture is widely adopted, but the writer of the Epistle, in applying the wors of the psalm to the Son, would not feel the difficulty ; and ' Thy throne, O God ' may stand."
Weymouth's NT says conjectures #1 through #2 say the following.
"(1) ' Thy throne is the throne of God ' (so. R.V. mg. in the Psalm).
(2) Thy throne is God for ever and ever.' "
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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Disillusioned JW
On page 23 of this topic Vanderhoven7 quotes the 1995 NASB translation of Hebrews 1:8-12 of which verse 8 says in part "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever". On the same page of the topic thread I also made a comment about Hebrews 1:8. In this post I am documenting scholarly support of the NWT translation of "God is your throne" for part of verse 8.
The translators' note for Hebrews 1:8 in the 1901 ASV says "Or, Thy throne is God for &c.". The translators' note for Hebrews 1:8 in the RSV (in both the First Edition of the NT [copyright 1946] and in the Second Edition of the NT [copyright 1971]) says Or, God is thy throne". The translators' note for Hebrews 1:8 in the NRSV (copyright 1989) says Or, God is your throne". The translation of Hebrews 1:8 in The Twentieth Century New Testament ... Revised Edition (copyright 1904) says "... God is thy throne for ever and ever ...". The Complete Bible: An American Translation (of which the NT was translated by Edgar J. Goodspeed; copyright 1939) translates Hebrews 1:8 as "... God is your throne forever and ever ...".
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1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today
by enoughisenough ini am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.
i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.
in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks Earnest for the update of what the Organized book says.
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post where I said "Mark 18:30" I should have said "Luke 18:30".
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
The account at Mark 10:30 (NASB Updated) does say "will receive a hundred times more now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms ... and in the age to come, eternal life" but I don't see evidence of that literally happening now for people. As a result I don't believe it. Yes some people get many more friends and quasi family members when they become an evangelical Christian and join a mainstream Christian congregation (and even some people purportedly received more friends when they become a JW) and you received a much better life, but I don't believe any of them received a hundred times more houses and farms (or a 100 times other possessions after selling all of their possessions and giving away all of the proceeds to the poor). It is good though that you are much happier now.
Furthermore, Matthew 19:28-29 does not say that any of the material blessings or new family members will come in the current age. Verse 28 (NASB Updated) says "in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne" the 12 apostles (thus apparently including Judas, according to this verse) "shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That obviously hasn't happened, and if it hypothetically happens it will be in the future (but I no longer believe it ever will happen). Verse 29 doesn't say "a hundred times more" but makes a much more modest claim of "many times as much" and it does not say when that will be be, but the context of 28 gives the impression that Jesus was claiming it will be in the future, "in the regeneration".
The account of Matthew was written later than that of Mark and after Christians noticed that the kingdom hadn't come yet, even though Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70 CE.
Luke 18:29-30 combines elements of Matthew 19:28-29 and Mark 10:29-30 and uses some wording not found in Matthew and Mark, but admittedly Mark 18:30 does say (in the NASB Updated) "at this time and in the age to come, eternal life." By the way Luke 18:29-30 makes it sounds like those who lost their wife "for the sake of the kingdom of God" (1984 NWT) will receive many times more wives "in this period of time" if they become a true follower of Christ; very interesting!
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: 3.25 hours prior to me submitting this post I submitted a post in which the first sentence of the second paragraph is poorly worded. That post is delayed in posting (as of the time of me submitting this post). After it posts and after this post (which is also delayed in posting) posts, note that the problematic sentence should say the following. "Yes after mentioning the account about the rich man in which the three gospels (which I mentioned in my earlier post) say that Jesus said that people should give all of their belongings away and follow Christ, Jesus later says the people will be richly rewarded in heaven, but even when I was a Christian and believed Christ would return I didn't know when Christ would return and when the kingdom would be established on (or over) the Earth." Further note that of course since about 12 years (when I stopped believing in God and a heavenly Christ) I have been certain Jesus never went to heaven and that he thus can't return to Earth and that he won't rule as king on (or over) the Earth.
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze I have no regret for saying the words "I" and "my" in my prior post. Since you say I was in error I ask you the following. "Have you sold all of your material belongings (including all the assets you saved up for retirement) and and given away all of the proceeds of such to the poor?" Please tell me your answer to that question.
Yes after mentioning the account about the rich man the three gospels (which I mentioned in my earlier post) say that people give people give it all away and follow Christ, they will be richly rewarded in heaven, but even when I was a Christian and believed Christ would return I didn't know when Christ would return and when the kingdom would be established on (or over) the Earth. Many Christians think similarly and in the meantime we need to take care of ourselves if we don't want to be homeless. Are you homeless? The NT says Jesus said he had no place to rest his head.
Furthermore, what if what the Bible says about the kingdom is false? Granted you are convinced of what the Bible says but many Christians are not completely certain that they will receive eternal life in the kingdom of Christ and that God will take care of their needs if they give away all of their possession, just as many Christians don't believe God answers their prayers.